Legislature(2005 - 2006)CAPITOL 124
03/02/2005 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB130 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | HB 130 | TELECONFERENCED | |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 2, 2005
1:11 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jay Ramras, Co-Chair
Representative Ralph Samuels, Co-Chair
Representative Jim Elkins
Representative Carl Gatto
Representative Gabrielle LeDoux
Representative Kurt Olson
Representative Paul Seaton
Representative Harry Crawford
Representative Mary Kapsner
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 130
"An Act granting certain state land to the University of Alaska
and establishing the university research forest; and providing
for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 130
SHORT TITLE: UNIVERSITY LAND GRANT/STATE FOREST
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
02/07/05 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/07/05 (H) RES, FIN
02/09/05 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
02/09/05 (H) Heard & Held
02/09/05 (H) MINUTE(RES)
02/14/05 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
02/14/05 (H) Heard & Held
02/14/05 (H) MINUTE(RES)
02/16/05 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
02/16/05 (H) Heard & Held
02/16/05 (H) MINUTE(RES)
03/02/05 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
MIKE REEVES
Hollis, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on problems with HB 130.
ROBERT LOEFFLER, Director
Division of Mining, Land and Water
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of HB 130.
JOE BEEDLE, Vice President for Finance
Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer Trustee
Land Grant Endowment Fund
University of Alaska
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of HB 130.
MARY MONTGOMERY, Director
University Land Management Office
University of Alaska
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of HB 130.
PETE KELLY
University of Alaska
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified that the governor, not the
university, selected lands for HB 130.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CO-CHAIR JAY RAMRAS called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:11:19 PM. Representatives
LeDoux, Elkins, Ramras, Crawford, Seaton, and Olson were present
at the call to order. Representatives Gatto, Samuels, and
Kapsner arrived as the meeting was in progress. Representatives
Bill Thomas and Peggy Wilson were also present.
HB 130-UNIVERSITY LAND GRANT/STATE FOREST
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS announced that the only order of business would
be a work session for HOUSE BILL NO. 130 "An Act granting
certain state land to the University of Alaska and establishing
the university research forest; and providing for an effective
date." The committee will open HB 130 up to the public on
Friday and try to vote it out on Monday, he added.
MIKE REEVES, Hollis, said there are problems with the HB 130
land selections in Hollis. He said he has informed DNR and
Representative Elkins.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD referred to a letter from the Sitka
Tribe stating that Lisianski Point and part of Biorka Island are
under dispute. Part of the Biorka Island parcel was allotted to
a Native family. It was condemned during WWII, and when the
military was done with it, the land was given to the Federal
Aviation Administration, he said. "These are lawsuits waiting
to happen," he warned, and he suggested getting more land to the
university from Southcentral Alaska. The areas in Southeast are
controversial, and the bill should swap these lands with lands
in Southcentral where people really want more private land, he
added. He said strongly that he wants to move away from "these
very, very controversial small sites in Southeast and get more
land in Southcentral where there is a real desire to have more
private land in private hands."
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said that Representative Crawford asked if there
is an interest in swapping controversial land in Southeast for
land that is less controversial near the old capital site, and
he asked the university if it was interested.
JOE BEEDLE, Vice President for Finance, Chief Financial Officer
and Treasurer Trustee, Land Grant Endowment Fund, University of
Alaska, Fairbanks, said the university "did not investigate that
property--it was not on the list. There is a disparity
difference in valuation today without a capital move concept
supporting that particular area. Our value currently is in
property in Southeast Alaska." He said he hesitates to show any
interest but would like to hear what DNR has to say.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said the land Representative Crawford
spoke of is in her district, and the Sitka Tribe of Alaska has
been fighting over it for 80 years. "There are lawsuits and
actions in the works," she said. "We all know that the federal
government is slow on moving these issue," and she asked the
committee to pull the disputed Biorka Island parcel.
1:21:05 PM
MS. MONTGOMERY said that the federal government has the
authority to take Native allotments and entitlements and replace
them with federal lands. She stated, "We have never been able
to stand in the way of Native allotments."
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he was pleased with the package that
DNR has brought forward, especially dealing with trails and
easements. He asked that the committee go through the
resolution issues first.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he wants to "take the temperature of the
room and see where we're at."
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS said the committee should compliment the
university with the attempts to fix the Neets Bay and Kodiak
Island issues, "but in reality, this whole thing is still very
controversial." The conveyance is 260,000 acres and it will be
matched with federal lands, he said, and if the legislature took
out part of the 10,000 acres it will not affect the federal
conveyance. If the bill omitted Kodiak, Neets Bay, Duke Island,
Kelp Island, and Warm Springs Bay that would only withdraw 6,622
acres from the transfer and will have no impact on the amount of
land the federal government will transfer. "We can eliminate a
lot of heartache with our constituents," he said.
1:24:58 PM
MR. BEEDLE said easements, Native graves, and set backs will
create a shrinkage of 10,000 acres that the university can't
control. He said he didn't want "the first committee meeting to
start releasing properties."
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS said this committee has an obligation to
the legislature and the citizens of the state to pass a good
bill.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX complimented the university and DNR in
attempting to get things resolved, but she is not sure the
proposed language for the Kodiak launch facility succeeds. She
asked Mr. Beedle if there will be continued public use of this
land, not just easements, "but horseback riding, fishing,
hiking--the whole shebang."
MR. BEEDLE said "we would anticipate those uses to continue
until such time that there is any kind of a plan that...would
require us to come back to the Kodiak Island Borough." However,
he said, there is an Interagency Land Management Agreement
(ILMA) that has been negotiated between DNR and the Alaska
Aerospace Development Corporation (AADC), which the university
cannot change. It will need to honor that, including security
issues, he said. The university will be working with the AADC
and the Kodiak Island Borough to resolve these issues, he added.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said she has not seen the ILMA, but she
understands it allows the AADC to restrict public access for
safety and to protect the assignee's improvements, and she is
concerned that the university will interpret the language more
stringently. She asked if the university would be willing to
restrict the public only during launches and hazardous
operations.
1:30:54 PM
MR. BEEDLE said "We will endeavor to do exactly as you ask,
subject to those legal agreements."
MS. MONTGOMERY stated that HB 130 already says the public can
use the land until the university develops it. She doesn't want
to interpret it differently than the AADC. "We would rely on
that decision and if we were in a dispute with AADC over access
to the public, we'd go back to this decision ourselves."
Putting it on the title, she said, would mean that it would
continue even if the ILMA went away. If the city of Kodiak and
the university decided to create a subdivision, "clearly the
public couldn't continue to recreate on lands sold into private
ownership."
1:32:42 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he met with Representative LeDoux and he
agrees with Representative Elkins that we should resolve this
before the bill leaves the committee. He asked DNR what the
bill offers the citizens of Kodiak other than a 90-day right of
first refusal.
ROBERT LOEFFLER, Director, Division of Mining, Land and Water,
Department of Natural Resources (DNR), said that the state has a
lease--the ILMA--with the Kodiak launch complex, so they have
certain rights and obligations under that lease, which runs
until 2024. Under the ILMA, he read, "Public access to state
lands, tide lands and waterways shall not be blocked or
restricted in any way on state land." He added that the launch
facility may restrict public access through the parcel to
protect public safety and the assignee's improvements, so DNR
interprets that to mean the facility can only restrict access
around the buildings or during a launch. He said the deed
restriction that the university wrote said the university will
not materially change the lease without the approval of the
Kodiak Island Borough. Mr. Loeffler said that he believes that
for the next 19 years there will be no restrictions on public
use except around buildings and during a launch. "I think
that's very strong," he said.
1:35:39 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX wants the university to confirm it and
assure that the commitment "runs with the land."
MR. LOEFFLER said that since DNR does not prohibit access during
the lease period, that is how the university will interpret it.
MR. BEEDLE added that there is a deed restriction which says
that the university shall not make any material amendments to
the ILMA without the written consent of the Kodiak Island
Borough, although consent shall not be unreasonably withheld.
"We're not wanting to change the agreement that exists or the
uses that exist," he said.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said she is concerned that the ILMA talks
about access to streams and waterways, but that is not what she
is concerned about. She does not want just a pathway that gets
someone from one place to another, but she wants public access
all through the land, so people can continue to do what they
have been doing for generations.
MR. LOEFFLER said he believes that that is the way DNR has been
interpreting the lease.
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS asked about the mapping error in the 80
acres near Hollis.
MR. LOEFFLER said DNR found an area in Hollis that was
classified as watershed that was inadvertently put into the map.
"I believe the 5th amendment would allow us to just revise
that," he said.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD said he feels like a broken record, but
he has voiced concerns about certain parcels, and he wants lands
where people live and where people want private lands. He said
the university could turn lands in Southcentral into cash
relatively easy. There are sensitive areas in Southeast that
people did not want to develop, and no follow up has been done
on that question, he said. He said his concerns were never even
voiced in the DNR revision.
MR. LOEFFLER answered that the capital site was a question for
the university, and that he does not have anything to add.
Regarding Biorka Island, he said that he was not aware of the
Native allotment issue, and a seal haul-out is two miles away
from conveyance land. If the allotment is valid it will not go
to the university, he added, and he is not aware of the
Lisianski Peninsula issue. He promised to respond.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS said, "We should square up" the Tenakee
Springs issue.
MR. LOEFFLER said there was a 17-acre parcel near the harbor
that the town of Tenakee Springs was trying to lease from DNR.
DNR put the discussions with Tenakee on hold "once we realized
that this was going to go to the university," or had that
potential. He said that with the prompting of Representative
Thomas, DNR will allow Tenakee to apply for a lease, and DNR
will adjudicate the application before the transfer is made. "I
believe that problem is solved," he said.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS said the process has been in place, and he
wanted to show in the record that it "wasn't politically done."
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if the issues of the Tenakee parcels are
resolved.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS responded in the affirmative, that the
only concern of Tenakee Springs was the 17-acre parcel.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX questioned the right of first refusal to
Kodiak and the Neets Bay hatchery because there is a good chance
the entities will not be able to afford to buy the land. Both
parcels are listed as educational land, and the university has
said it has no intention of selling the parcels. She asked if
the university would accept a requirement of not allowing the
university to sell those two parcels without consent of the
legislature.
MR. BEEDLE said that attaching the right of first refusal
diminishes the value of a parcel. A third party wanting to make
a purchase would realize that it will do the work and then the
first party could buy it. "By even offering [the right of first
refusal] it detracts from the university's long-term efforts,"
he said. He added that Neets Creek is not educational property.
He said that the Kodiak parcel is for education, but there are
auxiliary functions that include infrastructure. He said people
like to own land if they build something on it, like hotels,
restaurants, or other industries such as manufacturing. It is
awkward, he said, to ask the university to go back to the
legislature. It would be tying the hands of the university and
it would not want that, he said.
1:48:33 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if the current conditions of the
ILMA allow construction of hotels and such, and what effect that
would have on public access.
MR. LOEFFLER said a lease is an agreement between two parties,
and if both parties agree, they could do anything.
MS. MONTGOMERY said the ILMA would have to be amended and the
Kodiak Island Borough would have to approve it. The university
would have no right to develop the property without amending the
ILMA, she said.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS asked why can't the university agree to
drop selections based on a list of priorities since there is a
10,000-acre over selection. He said priorities would be Kodiak,
Duke Island, and Kelp Bay.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he comes from the school of thought that
you go to buy a quarter-pounder hamburger, and the small print
says that that is the weight prior to cooking. It doesn't end
up be a quarter of a pound. He said the university will have
easements and won't end up with the total acreage.
MR. BEEDLE said DNR already took the Hollis property off because
of a mapping error, there are "17 acres mentioned by Tenakee,"
and the university has to recognize water rights, so there will
be shrinkage of acreage. He said that many of the 90,000 acres
for educational purposes will never make money. He said he
thinks there will be diminishment outside of the easements that
will account for that 10,000 acres. We are getting "170,000
acres, at best" of income property.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS said Klukwan Village was told it would get
23,040 acres, and "by the time they took eagle nests, the water,
the creeks, the streams and buffers and easements all the way
around, we didn't get that. I think we lost 3,000 acres or more
and we went back and said we didn't get 23,040 and they changed
the rules too."
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if lands are dropped from the bill
will they still be available or do they go into protective
status.
MR. LOEFFLER said that the lands would not go into protective
status, and DNR management would continue as guided by area
plans.
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked how many acres of protected parklands
there are in Alaska.
MR. LOEFFLER said there are 3.2 million acres of parks in state
land, and including federal lands there are 134 million acres.
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked for the acreage of Native corporation
lands.
MR. LOEFFLER said there are 44 million of Alaska Native Claims
Settlement Act (ANCSA) lands.
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS said so that is 178 million acres that can't be
developed.
MR. LOEFFLER said much of the ANCSA land is developed.
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked what that leaves for private use.
MR. LOEFFLER said there are 104 million acres of state lands
that "we have or will get," but a very small portion is in
private ownership.
The committee took an at-ease from 1:59 p.m. to 2:04 p.m.
2:04:55 PM
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said she has concerns about the land near
Port Alexander and its watershed. The community's primary and
secondary source of water is included in the transfer, she said,
and because the primary water source fails in the winter, the
community is dependent on both. Port Alexander has all its
forest service and state permits, she added. The community is
very concerned that HB 130 will jeopardize the watershed, and
the water system is at maximum capacity and cannot handle new
developments, she said. Representative Wilson also said that
DNR issues quitclaim deeds for the land so it does not require a
land survey.
MR. LOEFFLER said the transfer to the university will be a
quitclaim deed, and a survey is not required until the
university sells it. If Port Alexander's water facilities are
on state land, they should be under lease or permit from DNR.
"I believe that we would use...a three-year title process to
really resolve those questions," he said, and if the water
rights need a survey, Port Alexander is responsible for that.
He added, "Water rights are not surveyed; if they actually have
a physical easement sometimes they are...it depends on the
survey. We typically work with communities and try to make it
inexpensive for them if we can."
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said the community would feel better if it
can be put in writing.
MR. LOEFFLER said he would be very happy to put that in writing.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said she is not sure, but she thinks that
is helpful.
MR. LOEFFLER said DNR takes its commitments to the legislature
very seriously.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said she is also concerned about Baranof
Warm Springs. She noted the springs flow from 9 primary
fissures in a close grouping. She said it is similar to Tenakee
where they do not allow blasting within 20 miles in hopes of
protecting the springs. She said that Sitka is in the process
of working on a blasting limit for the Baranof Warm Springs,
because people are afraid a disturbance will create a fissures
shift, and the warm springs could completely disappear. "This
is a very critical issue for that area," she said.
MR. LOEFFLER said if Sitka passes a law or ordinance, the
university and the state must respect it.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said the residents depend on Baranof Lake
and River for their fresh water. The lands are non-percolating
so any disturbance will create unsafe, polluted water in their
drinking supply. She said she thinks the parcel should be
pulled entirely.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if Representative Wilson wants the land
eliminated from the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said yes.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said that brings us back to square one because
that is what people want for Neets Bay, Tenakee, and the Kodiak
parcel, "which the university has already stated is not in their
interest to extract lands."
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD added Lisianski and Biorka.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said the most valuable land is precisely the
land that communities want extracted because they don't want to
pay for it and they don't want anyone else to have it. "This is
not in my back yard."
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS said the Tenakee request wasn't his doing;
the community had a prior commitment.
PETE KELLY, University of Alaska, said HB 130 is the governor's
bill, and the university is just receiving these lands from the
governor. The selection was made by the administration, he
said. The university will work with the people, but the
university is just a recipient.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS said that the governor did not hold any
public hearings, so the legislature is here for the people.
MR. KELLY said this is the public hearing, and according to the
constitution there is no higher level of public process.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON noted Section 6, concerning public
notices, and he asked why the public notice time drops from 60
days to 30 days.
MR. KELLY said he did not know.
2:16:28 PM
MR. BEEDLE said that the university usually honors a very long-
term public notice process through its annual plans. "There's
literally hundreds of examples of things that come up where a
long notice is a challenge for a current market situation.
Private sectors and municipalities are not required to do more
than a 30-day notice." He said over 90 percent of university
sales will be 60 days. He added that the 30 days is the notice
period and then it takes additional time to compile the comments
and report them to the regents, "so most cases it will extend
beyond 30 days, but we don't want to be limited." He said there
are many occasions where people cannot wait for the use of a
property.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if the university has experienced a
problem with the existing 60-day notice period.
MR. BEEDLE said that section is specifically dealing with land
that is in Senate Bill 7, and the university has not received
land under SB 7. He added that the former laws required a 30-
day notice without problems.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said the initial land selection process is
cloaked in mystery and he asked who did it.
MR. LOEFFLER said it was his staff, himself, and deputy
commissioner Marty Rutherford. He said that he was at all the
meetings and "there was a conversation with the university."
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked how DNR thought the communities would
react.
MR. LOEFFLER said he understood that the Southeast selections
would be controversial.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said, "We all can sense the intrinsic value of
these parcels otherwise communities wouldn't be objecting to
some of their best land that is presently in public hands,
seeing the process go through the pipeline to a private sale."
2:21:55 PM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS said to keep working.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said the land transfer is a good thing but we
need to minimize the impact to the communities.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON wanted to clarify that the committee was
comfortable with the resolution page and the solution for
Section 6--the municipal entitlement.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he thought Representative Seaton was
comfortable with those and that they were "largely your
objections."
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he wanted the sense of the committee
as well.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS asked Mr. Loeffler that since he
anticipated controversy, did he have other lands as back up. He
said there is lots of land around Haines.
MR. LOEFFLER said knowing the university felt that they needed
high-quality land to turn into income, DNR had to offer land in
Southeast. He added that he focused on lands that were in a
development category, and the vast majority of lands were drawn
from that category.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS said that DNR gutted Southeast and took
away the incentive to form organized boroughs, and he asked that
the message be given to the body who demands the formation of
boroughs.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said she wanted to make clear she is not
comfortable with easements for the Kodiak lands.
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS said we have taken big steps and that is a
compliment to the university.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked that if DNR's land classifications
will apply when the university owns it.
MR. LOEFFLER answered that DNR's rules do not apply to
university land.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS replied that once the lands go to the university
it is private land, and the expectation is that the university
will sell the property to other private landowners. "There are
134 million acres of lands in the State of Alaska, excluding
Native lands that people don't have access to. This is 260,000
acres, and we're contesting some of the more valuable land that
can go into private hands, but, frankly, that is what is suppose
to happen in this country and this state. Land is supposed to
move from public hands into private hands," he said. He added
that no one is proposing a Wal-Mart on the Kodiak launch site.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he doesn't think the university will
sell all the land; it may be leased or held for research. He
said there is nothing in the university plan that says it will
sell quickly.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD said he is resentful, and the committee
members didn't think that the university was about to sell to a
Wal-Mart. "I don't think that any of us here are trying to stop
this bill...I would like to see that every last acre that goes
to the university is something that can be turned into cash. I
want to see the university have something that, at the end of
the day, is worthwhile." He said he doesn't want to give the
university land that will cause lawsuits. "I want to see every
bit of this be high-value land that's going to make the
university something that they can put into education."
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD said the bill should have more land with
high-value gas potential, and include land in Southcentral
"where people are crying for private property." He questioned
why the committee has to do exactly what the governor has laid
down. "We can make some independent decisions on our own," he
said. Common sense should account for something, he said, so
weed out the more controversial selections before they become a
problem.
2:30:12 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS replied that the university should look at more
restrictive deeds "because I don't have a problem with the land
that they selected." He added that the challenge is the bill
has to move through house resources, house finance, and then the
Senate. "I think we are giving DNR and the university ample
time to work this out," he said. He added that the committee is
patient. "I feel that we have dedicated a lot of the
committee's valuable time to this process." He thanked the
university and DNR for being cooperative. He said Alaskans
share a special bond to a beautiful state, and the committee
will take public testimony on Friday and he anticipates it will
pass HB 130 out of committee on Monday.
[HB 130 was held over.]
2:32:15 PM
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:32 p.m.
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